Curse

Dalgon · Jul 14, 2005, 09:27 PM // 21:27

I decided to open this thread again for those who want to keep talking about what is the difference between strength and tactics...

Why is strength better than tactics?
I am normally a hammer warrior, currently using axe and strength based shield just for a change of routine, but I must say that a hammer is what will help a warrior do what they are supposed to do: go out there and club something to death, quickly, and painfully. I'll explain why in a little while.

Back to our strength question....
For example, I have been testing and well... Swords are stupidly pathetic, with my current armor setup no sword warrior will do more than 5 dmg at a time, maybe a little more with skills. If 15 lvl 20 minotaurs cannot kill me, trust me, sword/axe warriors can't kill me either. Axes are a little stronger, I must say decent. Hammers? No wonder they are my favorite weapon. No matter what my armor configuration is a good hammer warrior will always club me pretty good. Maybe not kill me, but it will give trouble.

Strength gives 1% armor penetration for each point, when you use attack skills. Pretty useless you would say? Now consider this:
W/MO build
Judge's Insight, your attacks become holy dmg and have 20% armor penetration
Penetrating Blow (axe) strikes for +x more dmg and has 20% armor penetration
Strength at 10, thus, 10% penetration
add it up, it equals a total of 50% armor penetration. Now axes aren't great dmg, but... How do you like it when someone uses an attack on you that ignores 50% of your current armor? Painful huh?
And you don't even want to know what it does to a caster.
Strength isn't a warrior's main attribute for nothing.

Now, to the hammer thing... I don't understand what is the thing with swords and axes. I'm using axe, but mainly so i can equip a shield, since I do a lot of pve. I am invincible enough without shield, but shield has made me even stronger.(Good casters are a problem, but against melee... I can't die) Hammer though, is the weapon i use in pvp.

My hammer build:
Hammer mastery 16
Max dmg hammer (19-35) with 15% bonus (while enchanted) and 20% (customized), total 35% bonus. Strength, 10

When I use hammer for pvp, I have one and only one goal: kill. I don't care if I die, if my target dies first, I'm happy.
For all those sword/axe warriors out there, consider using hammer

A little slower but god does it pay off.
Once I get 7 adrenaline, you are dead, no matter what your class is. A monk with a 65 health reversal of fortune takes at least 40 dmg OVER the reversal. So without the reversal, they would take a clean 100-120 dmg. Sick? Oh yeah
Devastating hammer, gives weakness, after that it's a matter of using 3 or 4 more hammer skills. Once you're knocked down once you're pretty much not getting up except to die. I use shocking hammer for monks and warriors, so I bypass armors a bit. Plus my strength gives me some penetration....
Normal hammer hits can hit a warrior from 40-70 dmg.
Devastating hammer hits a warrior for like 40-60 dmg, knocks them down and gives weakness.. Casters will take anywhere from 80-110 dmg. Then, Use Mighty Blow, which adds 32 dmg.. That would be around 70-110 to any warrior, 100-130 to any caster, use heavy blow which knocks down anyone suffering from weakness and adds 32 dmg, same numbers as before, and finally, last but not least, Irresistible Blow, (+32 dmg more) followed by Wild Blow which most of the time isn't even necessary to use.

Assuming an average of 100 dmg on those 5 attacks, that's 500dmg total, enough to take down almost any target. Trust me... Average dmg is not 100 at all.. Lovely when a sword/axe warrior can't hit me for over 15 dmg while i answer back with blows for 40 at least.
On top of all... Gotta love warriors blocking and evading.. awww... Too bad hammer has many skills that can't be blocked or evaded and deal extra dmg when opponent tries to? beautiful

So.. Strength any good? Hell yeah. Hammer any good? Double hell yeah.
Using sword/axe, I couldn't kill one of those resurrection priests for the life of me. Using hammer, once i get 7 adrenaline, which i get really fast, in like 4-5 hits cuz of certain skills, that priest gets knocked down, and dies within 5-10 seconds, no exceptions.. They manage to use heal area? Too bad I outdmg their heal area anyway...

So yes, strength is an awesome warrior attribute, and hammer is an awesome weapon.
Any comments on this? Feel free to contact me in game, Dalgon Leinhart is the name. I can show you both my survival build (fought 3 warriors and 1 ranger by myself, killed them all except one warrior, we had to play rock paper scissors to decide winner) or my killing build, not a lot of survival, but with a monk on my back I am pretty unstoppable. Killed 2 warriors and an elementalist by myself once before they could take half my health away. Poor sword warriors hitting for 0 dmg...

Comments?

clairvoyance · Jul 14, 2005, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Swords attack faster and can interrupt better than a hammer. However, I like hammer better for PvP since they have better skills that focus on one target giving weakness or knocking them down. I use backbreaker to knock them down for a longer period of time so i can set up other skills. Normal knockdowns aren't long enough for me to chain another hammer attack in. Anyways, I aggre with you =)

Dalgon · Jul 14, 2005, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by clairvoyance

Swords attack faster and can innteruppt better than a hammer. However, I like hammer better for PvP since they have better skills that focus on one target giving weakness or knocking them down. I use backbreaker to knock them down for a longer period of time so i can set up other skills. Normal knockdowns aren't long enough for me to chain another hammer attack in. Anyways, I aggree with you =)

I'd use backbreaker too it's a great skill.. but one problem... 10 adrenaline **ouch** I use stonefist gauntlets so my normal knockdown is increased from 1 second to 2 or 3 depending on opponent ( I have found out some types of opponent recover faster than others) which gives me more than enough to throw a skill in, then knockdown again... After which knockdown opponent pretty much dies

And swords are faster? Very true. They can interrupt a lot... But well, if you think about it... Can a sword interrupt a hammer falling down on you? If you're being blocked or evaded irresistible blow was created for that, besides, there isn't gonna be a lot of interruptable skills to use when all your intent is on clubbing someone to death.. A little impossible to stop a hammer like i said.. Lol
Also, swords may be faster, but again... Useless when they hit for 10 dmg tops? 5? Using hammer the most i ever got from a sword was 15 dmg... I replied with 65 >.> lol
Using shield swords are pretty much useless, even arrows do 0 dmg most of the time with the ocassional 1-5 critical.
Hammer is by far the best weapon in the game.. It all depends on what you want

WeiPing · Jul 14, 2005, 09:47 PM // 21:47

I like the armor a shield provides, and the reliability a sword provides. I don't do any pvp, though.

The Sensei · Jul 14, 2005, 10:22 PM // 22:22

You guys sold me on the hammer! ! ! I have 2 very nice gold ones in my um . . storage file, aka my mule. So when I get back to my cpu I'm going to play around with my hammers that I have found throughout the game. Thanks for the info, it sounds like to much fun for me to pass up, the whole being able to kill another warrior in 5 hits and not 15. Bye bye swords, hello Shocking Hammer of Fortitude.

aB- · Jul 15, 2005, 12:24 AM // 00:24

If a hammer does 19-35 damage, and an axe does 6-28 damage, I don't see how they're average damage is going to be 15 when yours is 40.

Although I do agree with you on hammer being the best for a warrior for PvP, but because of the knockdown mainly, not because of 3x the damage as sword or axe as you suggest.

Dalgon · Jul 15, 2005, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Sensei

You guys sold me on the hammer! ! ! I have 2 very nice gold ones in my um . . storage file, aka my mule. So when I get back to my cpu I'm going to play around with my hammers that I have found throughout the game. Thanks for the info, it sounds like to much fun for me to pass up, the whole being able to kill another warrior in 5 hits and not 15. Bye bye swords, hello Shocking Hammer of Fortitude.

I decided to expand greatly on hammer and how they worked for me, and share what build I use personally. I have two builds, survival, which of course is what it says, not a lot of dmg or fast killing, but pretty hard to kill me. This build is awesome for pve.
And well, just plain old dmg build, which I mostly use for pvp. Ill put skill sets for each build, and how they work. Survival build first

Attirbute point allocation:
Healing: 9
Strength: 10 (9 + minor rune)
Hammer Mastery: 16 (12 from attribute points, superior rune 3, dwarven helm 1, total 16)
Tactics: 4 (3, 1 from minor rune)
Skill Set:
1: Berserker Stance (atk 33% faster gain 20% more adrenaline when u hit in combat)
2: Hammer bash (Target is knocked down)
3: Belly Smash (If it hits knocked down target, the resulting dust cloud will blind nearby foes for 10 seconds) less time with less hammer mastery
4: Bonetti's Defense (75% to block attacks and arrows, gain 5 energy for each melee atk blocked. Lasts 7 seconds with 4 tactics)
5: Healing Hands (gain 17 health everytime you're hit in melee) less with less healing prayers
6: Healing Breeze (regen of 7)
7: Balthazar's Spirit (gain a little adrenaline and 1 energy everytime you take dmg)
8: Mending (Regen of 3)
I won't explain how skills work, if you find the description of the skills you should be able to figure out how they work together to make you last some good time against a good amount of opponents.

Dmg build for pvp
1: Berserker Stance
2: Devastating Hammer (elite skill, knocks down target and gives weakness for 21 seconds)
3: Mighty Blow (you hit for +32 more dmg)
4: Heavy Blow ( Lose all adrenaline.If you hit target suffering from weakness, you strike for +32 dmg and your target is knocked down)
5: Irresistible Blow (you strike for +32 dmg. If it's blocked, your target is knocked down, and it cannot be evaded)
6:Wild Blow ( if it hits your next hammer attack will be a critical hit. It cannot be blocked or evaded and will end any stance being used by opponent)
7: Restore Life (or purge conditions)
8: Mending

once you get 7 adrenaline, you use Devastating hammer, then right after use mighty blow, then heavy blow. Mighty Blow has to go first, since Heavy blow will make you lose all your adrenaline. So.. Devastating hammer >> Mighty Blow(at end of which target should be done getting up.. to go right back down :P) Heavy Blow, and finally Irresistible blow. Usually many targets will die after irresistible, if not, wild blow.

Just thought I'd give some insight on how to use hammer. Most people that start with hammer leave it because they cant figure out how to work with it.

Any question feel free to contact me in game, name is Dalgon Leinhart
I am using axe and shield now though for pve, the extra armor from shield is awesome.the extra 16 armor and using watch yourself makes me literally invincible

Minotaurs in Elona mission (lvl 20, use hammer) hit for like 0-5 dmg :P Of course most of it has to do with my armor configuration too

Sometimes I use axe build in pvp just to get people angry

Anyway, feel free to contact me anytime

Ensign · Jul 15, 2005, 12:32 AM // 00:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dalgon

Why is strength better than tactics?

Sprint.

Peace,
-CxE

Dalgon · Jul 15, 2005, 12:35 AM // 00:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by aB-

If a hammer does 19-35 damage, and an axe does 6-28 damage, I don't see how they're average damage is going to be 15 when yours is 40.

Although I do agree with you on hammer being the best for a warrior for PvP, but because of the knockdown mainly, not because of 3x the damage as sword or axe as you suggest.

I see your point perfectly, but look at these numbers.

Axe dmg is 6-28... Just look at that gap there. 6-28. Big hole between lowest and highest number hmm? Looking at it from a numeric point of view, you could hit for 6, or for 28 since it's all random. I am not sure how the dmg works in the game, not completely sure, but let's say each point in your axe mastery is 1 point more in your dmg output.(Although los of things influence in dmg, I'm just trying to put an example why axe and sword dmg is so low) Since you have the chance of hitting for anywhere between 6-28, if you have let's say 9 axe mastery, and you just happen to hit for 6 in that random 6-28, add 6 to your 9 mastery, which is 15 dmg. And so on and so on. It doesn't work this way, but the number 6-28 is just way too random. Hammer on the other hand, is 19-35. Assuming you hit for the lowest of your weapon, 19, add let's say 9 hammer mastery, that's 28 dmg. Thus, it's just the randomness of the rating in the axe that makes it hit for way less dmg, even though max dmg is only 7 points away from hammer. I have 16 hammer mastery. Assumint I hit for the lowest of the weapon, 19, add 16 to that, and it comes to around 35. Of course like I said, many other things influence dmg, my dmg potential is way bigger, and what makes a huge difference is what armor the opponent is using.
Also, I hit other for at least 40, mostly. I have found warriors that take 35, even 30. And the 15 dmg I am talking about, is based on myself. I have an armor configuration like I haven't found yet, since it took me lots and lots of testing. I have been called a couple times a "god" in pvp simply because 3 warriors with an air ele took 15 minutes to kill me, and warriors and rangers only don't even stand a chance. It has been a lot of testing and trying and more testing for me to find and discover what I know, personally with my axe i hit others for way more than they hit me. With my newes addition to my armor though axe/sword dmg dropped to no more than 10, 10 being a critical hit.
Any doubts, contact me in game and I shall go to Elona with you and solo the mission there if you so wish

Only problem is even if I can't die in the mission I run out of time in the last crystal. Or I'll just pull 10 or 11 minotaurs to me and kill them all one by one as an example. Again, you're very welcome to ask any questions you like

And swords do crappy dmg simply because their max is 22... Pathetic

Spartan2 · Jul 15, 2005, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Dalgon, just think of the added dmg you could do if you had a great monk on your back and you were a W/E with Aftershock added to all those good hammer skills

Dalgon · Jul 15, 2005, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spartan2

Dalgon, just think of the added dmg you could do if you had a great monk on your back and you were a W/E with Aftershock added to all those good hammer skills

Aftershock is decent, but please remember, my warrior is my pve character, and I love to just go out there and kill stuff, farm by myself, etc etc. If I was W/E, I would be awesome in pvp, but in pve I wouldn't be able to do much by myself

hydrak · Jul 15, 2005, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalgon

Lovely when a sword/axe warrior can't hit me for over 15 dmg while i answer back with blows for 40 at least.

Assuming gladiators armors are used, on normal attacks:

Sword warrior with 16 sword mastery is doing (15-22)*.5*1.15 ==> 9-13 damage to a hammer warrior (not counting critical)

Hammer warrior with 16 master is doing (19-35)*.38*1.15 ==> 8-15 damage to a sword warrior using 16armor shield (not counting critical).

Now if you take the skills into account. Sword has higher damage, while hammer has knock down (which can be counter easily as a warrior).

Please explain your logics.

Spartan2 · Jul 15, 2005, 01:00 AM // 01:00

I understand it is your PvE character, but if you have a free spot on you could make a PvP only W/E that would just tear it up.

Hydrak, he is doing tons of damage because 30-50% of his damage is going straight thru and ignoring the armor, aka armor penetration

hydrak · Jul 15, 2005, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spartan2

I understand it is your PvE character, but if you have a free spot on you could make a PvP only W/E that would just tear it up.

Hydrak, he is doing tons of damage because 30-50% of his damage is going straight thru and ignoring the armor, aka armor penetration

Sword can do the same thing by points into strength/judge's insight/sundering mod... I don't get his point.

Btw, I've seen a good sword warrior going against a good hammer warrior before 1v1 in 4v4 arena, international district. Even with half hp, a sword still beat hammer with full life. A good hammer warrior is better than sword or axe against caster because of all the knockdowns. But without a doubt, sword vs hammer is like rock vs egg.

Spartan2 · Jul 15, 2005, 01:14 AM // 01:14

He is just trying to point out the flaws in some of the Warrior FotM builds by trying to enlighten people into the benefits of going from tactics into strength and/or sword/axe to hammer. Either choice is fine but if you can produce great damage that you can live with it doesn't really matter. Go with what you deem better, it doesn't really matter in the long run until you get served by the choice you didn't pick.

hydrak · Jul 15, 2005, 01:18 AM // 01:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spartan2

He is just trying to point out the flaws in some of the Warrior FotM builds by trying to enlighten people into the benefits of going from tactics into strength and/or sword/axe to hammer. Either choice is fine but if you can produce great damage that you can live with it doesn't really matter. Go with what you deem better, it doesn't really matter in the long run until you get served by the choice you didn't pick.

I would agree with him if he said strength is better than tactic for pvp. But to say hammer does 4 times the damage of sword or axe is ridiculous. He was just pulling numbers out of thin air or maybe he was fighting people who used armors with 50AL or less.

Willow · Jul 15, 2005, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Does strength only affect attack skills, or does it go to skill aided attacks as well?

To clarify, I use Sever Artery, Final Thrust, and Beserker Stance in by warrior build. Do I penetrate armor while Beserking? How about while aided by my own Order of the Vampire?

ElderAtronach · Jul 15, 2005, 01:27 AM // 01:27

Hammers are ok... but once you get hit with soothing images, what do you do? Or you're hitting someone with sympathic visage on? No adrenaline = no massive hammer attacks.

dbgtboy · Jul 15, 2005, 01:39 AM // 01:39

where can i get stonefist gauntlets?

hydrak · Jul 15, 2005, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElderAtronach

Hammers are ok... but once you get hit with soothing images, what do you do? Or you're hitting someone with sympathic visage on? No adrenaline = no massive hammer attacks.

As a PvP wa/mo, having a slot for either hex or condition remover wouldn't hurt. Taking that extra burden off your monks, leaving them free to do their jobs of healing and protection.